The Wholesale Forums

[hbtrading]

After reading the posts posted here I would say the seller has fulfilled most of is obligation's however there is one thing that bothers me that’s when the seller said this:
**How much do these sell for on eBay?
- More than $250...usually much more** (This could be an inflated figure to promote sales?!)




I understand that the seller didn't know that there are 2 package....however the end result is misleading information was given over to the buyers.
In defense of the seller i must say that it is always the buyers obligation to research products before he buys them and NEVER to rely on what the seller says, this holds true of products that are new releases where no research data is available how much more so of a product that you can easily be researched.

In conclusion I would say that the seller has no obligation but he did mislead although unknowingly.




Take care all!

[nocturnal]

You delivered what you advertised end of story, no refunds / discounts are applicable plain and simple.

At the end of the day all questions should have been asked before the transactions were carried out.

[ForSenaLLC]

I would like to thank each and everyone of you for giving your input on the situation. Contrary to what I had anticipated, there haven't been any additional buyers who have raised this issue since. The 2 buyers who did initially raise this issue have been on the forum numerous times yesterday (active users online listing on main page) but have not said a single word. Perhaps your objective views have helped them understand the situation better.

Thank you very much.

[LT123]

As of now, purely for the sake of trying to make the group more satisfied, I would be willing to drop all of the profit I made from this deal. Keep in mind, though, it is minimal. Since I've had a buyer wanting a total refund and cancellation of his order, I am skeptical as to whether my measly profit amount will be satisfying at all.

I am in this group buy too. I checked ebay when I saw the post. I thought everything was same. I agree wrong on both side. Mr. Lee has some misleading and my buying has based on my assumption. I am learning now.... I will be happy if the seller can give up some profit. I am tring to figure out buy momery card or just sale as is. Can anyone give a suggestion? Thanks.

[ForSenaLLC]

I appreciate and respect your opinions, hbtradings and Lei.

First, I would like to guide hbtradings to post #12...I would like to clarify that there were no inflated figures.

I would also need a more convincing argument as to why I was misleading. Unless I am convinced that I truly was misleading, I will not take blame for something I did not do.

The whole point of starting this thread was to objectively find out whether I did indeed do something wrong. I am human and I make mistakes all the time but, in this case, I believe I did not do anything wrong. I believe this thread has further proved the validity of my opinion.

[vector2ny]

As one of the buyers in this group, I just quickly want to throw my two cents worth in.

I wish Yun would have told us there were 2 different versions. I wish the version I got came with a memory card. Hell, while I'm at it I wish I had bought these at $50 less than I paid.

As much as I would like there to be a better market than there is considering what I got and what I paid, the truth of the matter is Yun delivered exactly what was promised, when it was promised, and how it was promised.

I should have done a little more homework. Its really that simple.

I personally dont feel Yun owes the group anything more than what he has delivered.

Thats just my opinion.

[ForSenaLLC]

Thank you very much for your input, Greg.

I can assure everyone that the next time I broker cell phones, the lead time will be significantly shorter now that I have at least 2 steady sources with quick turnaround times and a few more backups. I sure jumped through some hoops trying to meet my deadline for this deal but through that process, I've gained a whole lot including a great supplier for cell phones.

[aj10]

After reading all the opinions of the members here in this forum and after a very thoughtful and careful consideration, I've decided it's time to speak up and let my side of the story out. I'm the buyer who refused to accept the package from the seller.

I had hoped that this matter would be settled privately (just among those people involved in this transaction). I'm a very private person, and as much as possible, I try to stay out of these things unless it's really necessary. But since this has been out in the open, I just felt the need to express myself here. I just had to change my user ID in order to protect my family as I don't want them to be involved in this mess. This is my first transaction here and I must say, what a traumatic experience this has been.

I admit that as a buyer, I've made a wrong assumption here. I thought that there was ONLY ONE COMPLETE PACKAGE. But this assumption was based strongly on the fact that the Cingular SLVR Package includes more than what the seller's package has. And Cingular has JUST ONE type of package.

So I think it's ONLY FAIR to say that the seller should've taken responsibility in keeping his buyers WELL-INFORMED of the items that he's selling. Being a good seller doesn't mean that your ONLY obligation is JUST to deliver the goods. Being a good seller means you ALSO have to let your buyers know of WHAT QUALITY, (or in this case) WHAT TYPE of goods you're selling. This way, you are gaining your buyers' trust and confidence. And that's how you build a good customer base.

I believe that the seller is CONTRADICTING himself when he said in his first post and I quote:
I didn't know of these packages either...I just knew that some come with a memory card and some don't.

Well, if he knew that SOME come WITH memory card and SOME DON'T, then he must've known that THERE IS MORE THAN ONE type of package. And he said 'I didn't know' ??

So therefore, he should've mentioned either 'BASIC' or 'STANDARD' package in his INVOICE or ICPO. The only thing written was 'Motorola L7 SLVR GSM Cellular Phone'. The words 'BASIC' or 'STANDARD' was not mentioned anywhere.

The seller could have send his buyers JUST the cellphone HANDSET, and can claim he has 'fulfilled his obligations' and 'delivered what he's promised'. And the poor buyers could not have argued with that.

BUT we are not talking of JUST a cellphone here. This is a SLVR cellphone WITH iTunes. So this means that this phone has a DUAL FUNCTION --- a WIRELESS PHONE and an MP3 PLAYER. All the BASIC accessories (like battery, charger, manual etc.) are REALLY BASIC accessories to make the phone WORK. Now, how do you make the MP3 player work? You of course should have the accessories for it.

Also, we are not just talking of a missing memory card here. I believe that the whole package comes with (ASIDE from the BASIC accessories) - a memory card, a USB cable, CD-ROM software, & a stereo headset.

Now, what are these for? You need the memory card to store songs/music, you need the USB cable (& CD-ROM) to download music from your PC to your phone, and you need the radio headset (obviously) to listen to your music.

As a buyer, if I know that I'm buying a 'DUAL FUNCTION' SLVR unit with ONLY the phone that can function , then why would I bother? I would just buy older cellphone units at a much cheaper price. But no, I'm buying this unit NOT JUST to use as a cellphone but ALSO to use as an MP3 player. So I would need ALL the accessories to make BOTH FUNCTIONS work, and for the SLVR unit to serve its DUAL PURPOSE.

Now, you might say, what about other accessories like cellphone case, straps, clips etc. Should a buyer ask that these be included in the BASIC accessories? Of course not, these are what you call extras or add-ons and these are NOT NECESSARY items to make FULL USE of your SLVR unit. The SLVR unit can still function as a phone and as an MP3 player even without those other extra things.

So I don't know why there's EVEN a BASIC package with the SLVR item. I think that the DELUXE package should have been the BASIC package. Because Cingular has ONLY ONE type of package. They don't have such things as BASIC or DELUXE packages. Everything you should need is in that ONE package. The only difference is, with Cingular, you need to sign up for a plan.

That being said, isn't it REASONABLE and JUSTIFIABLE to NATURALLY expect that ALL accessories mentioned above should be BASIC accessories with regards to the SLVR's functionality as a wireless phone and as an MP3 player. You need all those accessories to make full use of the SLVR item. And therefore SHOULD be INCLUDED in the package.

Yes, I am just a buyer in this case, but I am also a seller. And as a seller, I just would NOT sell these items without mentioning the words 'BASIC' or 'DELUXE' if I knew that there are 2 packages and there's a HUGE difference between them. Because if I did, then I would somehow be suppressing an IMPORTANT DETAIL and thereby MISLEAD my buyers.

I believe that this is a piece of CRITICAL INFORMATION that the buyer should be made aware of. And 'BASIC' is a simple but a strong and powerful word that the seller somehow forgot to mention or write somewhere. Then it would've been a completely different story.

Oh yeah, I forgot, he did mention the word 'BASIC' and he also did tell us of the package contents. But he did it AFTER he has shipped the items. He said I was getting the 'BASIC' package and NOT the DELUXE one. I don't think he would even mention it if I hadn't ask him (by accident) of the size of the memory card. So, when I realized that I won't be getting the item that I was expecting, I've made a decision not to accept the shipment and had it returned unopened to the seller.

I agree, the seller didn't do anything wrong. But he didn't DO THE RIGHT THING either.

Again, I admit that it was a misunderstanding on my part. But clearly, it was also a misrepresentation on the seller's part.

Personally, I don't have anything against this seller. He did say some hurtful words before. But he also did send his apologies in his last email for which I appreciate. I just wish he had been more upfront from the start.

I know that most of us here are sellers. But with all due respect, we are not just sellers here. Please do remember that we are buyers FIRST. And as both buyers and sellers, we know we have to abide by what's in 'BLACK & WHITE', but sometimes, we also have to look beyond it and try to see what's in the BIGGER GRAY area. And I believe that this situation falls into that area.

Best regards to all.

[avideo]

Because we are buyers and sellers we should know that questions HAVE to be asked before you agree to purchase something. When someone puts themselves out for a group buy and people back out or refuse product, that in my opinion is very wrong. I own a SLVR myself and I have not once used the MP3 function and probably never will. I was actually surprised to see the headset with the phone and just considered it a perk. I'm sure if the seller had been asked the questions he would have given the information needed for the buyer to decide whether to purchase or not. I just don't think a seller should be responsible for educating a buyer about a product.

[ForSenaLLC]

Originally Posted by aj10

Being a good seller means you ALSO have to let your buyers know of WHAT QUALITY, (or in this case) WHAT TYPE of goods you're selling.

Quality: Brand New, Not Refurbished
Type: Motorola SLVR L7 Cell Phone
I believe I was quite clear about that.

Originally Posted by aj10

I believe that the seller is CONTRADICTING himself when he said in his first post and I quote:
I didn't know of these packages either...I just knew that some come with a memory card and some don't.

Well, if he knew that SOME come WITH memory card and SOME DON'T, then he must've known that THERE IS MORE THAN ONE type of package. And he said 'I didn't know' ??

Yes, I did know that there was more than one type of package being sold on eBay. What I did not know was whether there was more than one type of retail package or not. Whether the packages came from the manufacturer with the memory or whether the eBay sellers later included them in the package (especially since they call them free gifts) was beyond my knowledge...hence, "I didn't know". No contradiction. By "these packages" I was talking about "basic" and "deluxe".

I wanted to make sure what I could offer so I did my homework and asked my supplier whether memory cards are included or not. My supplier told me they were not included. Thus I mentioned nothing about memory cards. I did not further question whether there were other alternative packages. As far as I was concerned, the package I was brokering was a complete retail package and a memory card was not part of it. As a seller, it would be unintelligent to advertise what my products do not have. According to your logic, perhaps I should've advertised that my product does not have a memory card nor does it have a leather case, a bluetooth headset, a data cable, etc. Just as I have done my homework by finding out what products I am dealing with, you should have done the same. I believe the numerous posts on this thread reinforce my point.

Originally Posted by aj10

So therefore, he should've mentioned either 'BASIC' or 'STANDARD' package in his INVOICE or ICPO.

As mentioned above, I didn't know that there existed more than one type of standardized package.

Originally Posted by aj10

The seller could have send his buyers JUST the cellphone HANDSET, and can claim he has 'fulfilled his obligations' and 'delivered what he's promised'.

Actually, that is not true because I specified that they were retail packages. If anything, that is supposed to be in there, was missing, then the package would be incomplete. I delivered what I promised because I delivered what is in the retail package which I brokered.

Originally Posted by aj10

BUT we are not talking of JUST a cellphone here. This is a SLVR cellphone WITH iTunes. So this means that this phone has a DUAL FUNCTION --- a WIRELESS PHONE and an MP3 PLAYER.

I am highly skeptical as to whether people would call the Motorola SLVR L7 a MP3 player just because it has the capability of playing MP3s. It is a cell phone which has MP3 functionality.

Originally Posted by aj10

I believe that the whole package comes with (ASIDE from the BASIC accessories) - a memory card, a USB cable, CD-ROM software, & a stereo headset.

That is what you believe. It is not a fact. As long as nothing is missing from what comes from the manufacturer, it is a whole package.

Originally Posted by aj10

As a buyer, if I know that I'm buying a 'DUAL FUNCTION' SLVR unit with ONLY the phone that can function , then why would I bother? I would just buy older cellphone units at a much cheaper price. But no, I'm buying this unit NOT JUST to use as a cellphone but ALSO to use as an MP3 player.

You would buy it because it's a nice phone, better than older cell phone units. avideo has proved this point.

Originally Posted by aj10

So I don't know why there's EVEN a BASIC package with the SLVR item. I think that the DELUXE package should have been the BASIC package.

Unfortunately, the world does not always follow what you think should have been.

Originally Posted by aj10

Because Cingular has ONLY ONE type of package. They don't have such things as BASIC or DELUXE packages. Everything you should need is in that ONE package. The only difference is, with Cingular, you need to sign up for a plan.

And Cingular is only one of the numerous companies that sell these phones.

Originally Posted by aj10

Yes, I am just a buyer in this case, but I am also a seller. And as a seller, I just would NOT sell these items without mentioning the words 'BASIC' or 'DELUXE' if I knew that there are 2 packages and there's a HUGE difference between them. Because if I did, then I would somehow be suppressing an IMPORTANT DETAIL and thereby MISLEAD my buyers.

Well then, you do that if you have that knowledge when you sell. That's your choice. As for me, as mentioned above, I did not know of those packages. I am still half&half about whether I should have mentioned it even if I did happen to know.

Originally Posted by aj10

Oh yeah, I forgot, he did mention the word 'BASIC' and he also did tell us of the package contents. But he did it AFTER he has shipped the items. He said I was getting the 'BASIC' package and NOT the DELUXE one. I don't think he would even mention it if I hadn't ask him (by accident) of the size of the memory card.

For those who are wondering why I said that I didn't know of the different types of packages above, I said so simply because I didn't know at the time being discussed. I found out about these terms while talking to a few different suppliers later in the process when the group buy was already on its way. It turned out that the Basic Pack was the one that we were looking for so that is what I ordered. Of course, if it were possible to get the Deluxe Pack with our prices, then, by all means, I would have ordered the Deluxe Pack and sent the good news out that we would also be getting memory cards. If that had happened, I bet that many people would have considered it an unexpected gift...since never before had a memory card even been discussed.

One thing about the "Basic Pack" and the "Deluxe Pack"...I don't even think these are standard terms. It's probably just a term used by one of my suppliers. I've seen other terms such as "Full Pack" and "Half Pack". I've also seen an eBay listing that said "Deluxe Pack" but did not contain a memory card...just some other accessories. The only reason this term was brought up is because aj10 called me to ask why our packages did not contain memory cards when I was very busy preparing the shipments and I simply used the terminology that I heard from one of my suppliers to simplify things and help understanding.

If anybody had asked anytime earlier, I would have told them straight up just like I did when the one person actually did ask (and that one person is not aj10). It turns out that the person asked on the day I was preparing the shipment. Did I wait to ship it before telling you this? No, I simply was never asked this question. As a matter of fact, I did not have to tell any of you except for the individual who asked the question. Yet, I figured this might be something that the rest of you might want to know also, so I included the whole group in my response to the question.

Originally Posted by aj10

So, when I realized that I won't be getting the item that I was expecting, I've made a decision not to accept the shipment and had it returned unopened to the seller.

Unfortunately, you should've waited to consider the possibility that maybe you were expecting the wrong thing. Now, you've added to your costs by making it necessary for you to pay the shipping costs for sending the package back to you.

Originally Posted by aj10

I agree, the seller didn't do anything wrong. But he didn't DO THE RIGHT THING either.

Choose one please. I am either innocent or guilty.

Originally Posted by aj10

Again, I admit that it was a misunderstanding on my part. But clearly, it was also a misrepresentation on the seller's part.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I need a more convincing argument as to why I was misleading or misrepresenting. If I am convinced that I was indeed misleading and/or misrepresenting, then I will be ready to take responsibility for that. I don't agree with that as of now though and I believe the objective third-party views tend to side with my opinion.

Originally Posted by aj10

Personally, I don't have anything against this seller.

Ditto.