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DHL lost my $4000 shipment!

Discussion in 'Logistics - Payment & Shipping' started by Theory817, Jun 6, 2007.

  1. Theory817

    Theory817

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2006
    Messages:
    34
    Pete, I will be sure to let you know when I care about your opinion. Unfortunately that's not going to be any time soon, so for now perhaps you should go do something more constructive than arguing on the internet about a situation you have limited information on.

    Greedyboy, you're right. I wouldn't have called anyone and told them I owed extra money. I probably wouldn't even have looked at the declared value on the package to compare it to my invoice. I am extremely honest person though, and from now on I am making it explicitly clear to my suppliers to insure my shipments for the full amount. This is one lesson I have learned from this whole ordeal.

    And to clarify to anyone who's interested, I'm mainly so angry over this because it was all I had left in my business. I lost almost $5000 back in December after Pam (just do a search for "Pam" if you're not familiar) gouged prices on PS3's and didn't get them here quick enough. I didn't get on here and complain once about it. It put me under for months. I had lost a good deal of money before that even due to her business practices. I was getting back on my feet, and now this happens. So yeah, I'm a little bit upset that I almost lost my business over this, and I don't need anyone's comments about how I reacted. I am justifiably angry over DHL being unable to deliver the goods, AND giving me a different story each day about where they were (half the shipment is still MIA). My supplier should have insured them, and DHL should have delivered. The bottom line is it's not my fault. I've been talking with my supplier and DHL each day about getting reimbursed, and hopefully this will be resolved soon.
  2. dhluser

    dhluser

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2007
    Messages:
    1
    Hello ,

    I have read this thread and have gathered useful information. My case is similar to this one - DHL customer service is giving me various reasons as to why my shipment has not arrived - some reps say it is in transit but dont know where , some said that my shipping address was not correct . i actually went to the DHL centre and the person there said that it has been applied for a claim , so maybe DHL has lost your package (this info was never told to me by any of the reps though ) .

    I do have the shipping invoice from my shipper in my email , which does have the correct amount. So the next step should be , as per the above post would be to caontact my credit card company for the chargeback , and let the shipper deal with DHL . Please let me know if i have got this correct. Will i need any other proof along with this . Will the email invoice suffice ?

    Thanks All ...
  3. etradz

    etradz

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    985



    Hi, i have a same problem although my package was very small , 450$ , they lost after arriving in uk n they said supplier has to claim n when they claimed , dhl is reimbursing only 100$

    is there anything i can do abt it
  4. Pete

    Pete

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    14,067
    You can try and get your supplier to make it good, but that is probably not going to happen.

    In the future, buy insurance. Or, take your chances, knowing that without insurance you will lose.
  5. charlie-j

    charlie-j Banned Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2009
    Messages:
    152
    I think DHL don't take care over parcels, the first time they used them my server arrived all smashed up. UPS and EMS are much cheaper anyway. Good luck with this, 2 boxes have arrived, in theory DHL are liable for $2000 and the supplier for the undervaluation of $2000, but now 2 have arrived it is $1000 each.
  6. bhsizemo11

    bhsizemo11

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    311
    It amazes me that some want couriers to pay for their damages above $100 without paying for declared value coverage (or don't know this). The one creating the shipping labels either chooses DV or not, so your issue is with your supplier and not DHL. Your supplier saved $25 in DV fees but cost you $4000 (or half that with 2 packages delivered - and re-read that customs value was $2000 but $0 for DV). It's just like insuring jewelry on your homeowner's policy with coverage of $1000 (normally included free, just as DHL provides $100 coverage free). Do you expect a payout higher than $1000 without paying additional premiums? That's what you're wanting - coverage without paying for it.

    This is why you always fund purchases with a credit card. Regardless of what your supplier states, they are responsible for delivering the items to you as your credit card rights supercede their terms. It's a simple case of item not received. The merchant will have to supply proof of signature at the billing address for charges $250 and over. If they can't provide such documentation, the merchant loses, period.

    Personally I use a third party parcel insurance company so all I need is the $100 check and I collect the rest from the third party. It's easier, cheaper, and isn't subject to the exclusions imposed by the major couriers.
  7. mug2k

    mug2k

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2009
    Messages:
    79
    When you say you pay by credit card, do you mean via paypal or something. When people are ordering container loads of items I don't think paying by credit card is an option. Or is it ??

    Also to the UK based members, can you recommend any third party insurance companies ?.
  8. bhsizemo11

    bhsizemo11

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    311
    Anything funded with a true credit card (not debit card) will give you such protections. You must fund the purchase 100% with the credit card if paying via PayPal. Google Checkout doesn't make payments from linked bank accounts or balance funds, so just make sure you use a true credit card. Fortunately, I deal with companies in my own country that take credit cards. They don't care if the order is $300 or $300K - they take credit card.
  9. Pete

    Pete

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    14,067
    That is not so in commercial transactions. Even with credit cards, which were designed as a personal use item, when used in a business to business commercial transaction centuries old commercial laws apply. There are a number of long established international commercial terms and method of payment does not invalidate them.

    Business and government credit cards specifically do not offer some of the supposed benefits of personal cards, but when used in commercial transactions many of the supposed benefits do not apply.
    With clearly stated terms of FOB I have been involved in such issues and can speak from experience. Since the terms for shipping is "prepaid and invoiced", the shipper has no cost for shipping nor any reason for undervaluing.

    I am not saying that is the case in this instance, but I am saying that using a credit card in commercial transactions does not give you the same rights you have when purchasing as an individual. Picking up the first of several of those annoying inserts you get every time Visa or MasterCard change their terms, I readily found this exclusion - "Items purchased for resale, professional or commercial use".

    From another: "Your account is a consumer account and shall be used for personal, family or household purposes."

    I suggest that everyone read the fine print before expecting "backup" on commercial transactions using plastic. It is not there.

    There is much misinformation on the Internet and everyone has the responsibility to find out what actually applies in their case. And my US user agreements may not be anything like those in other countries, but I'd be willing to bet that most personal credit and debit cards have some sort of stipulation or exclusion stating they are not for commercial use.

    Sorry, guys, I just hate to see you have false hope and get let down.

    In the one case where the shipper "supposedly" lowered the value to save his costs, you may have a case against the shipper. I am not pointing any fingers here, but the fact is that many importers beg to have lower than actual cost shown on customs documents and if you asked for a lower cost to be shown, but expected full coverage in other ways, I don't think you'll have much of a case.

    Again, not pointing fingers, just saying if that was the case you have to look in the mirror to find the guilty party.

    There are no easy answers, but having the full and entire facts would be the first requirement.
  10. bhsizemo11

    bhsizemo11

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    311
    "Even with credit cards, which were designed as a personal use item, when used in a business to business commercial transaction centuries old commercial laws apply." And what century old laws are applied to current business credit cards that differ from consumer credit cards?

    Visa/MC/Disc ("Association") and AMEX are using current laws and have offered very similar protections to commercial clients even though credit cards were introduced to the consumer. Please provide a link to Visa/MC/DISC/AMEX stating that commercial accounts don't have the same DISPUTE rights on items not received, not as described, etc that a consumer card does. Aren't you referring to the "Purchase Security and Extended Protection Benefits" Visa offers at http://usa.visa.com/business/cards/benefits/bft_purchase_security.html? This has nothing to do with dispute rights. In fact, this page is specifically for benefits of a business card - they just don't offer these specific protections (Purchase Security and Extended Protection) for purchases intended for resale (this exclusion applies whether you use a business or consumer card). Merchants are held to proof of delivery standards, whether it's a consumer/business/government card.

    All of my card issuing banks (AMEX/Visa/MC branded) take the dispute just as if it was a personal card. I've never once been told I was out of luck because I used a commercial card and couldn't dispute the charge over the past 10 years. I've won several chargebacks with Visa/MC/AMEX on commercial cards for items not received, one from Pam on this forum for $20K or so on a business MasterCard. I've yet to lose one and don't think that will change when there's no proof of signature at the billing address for charges $250+.
  11. Pete

    Pete

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    14,067
    And I have avoided chargebacks by claiming the card was used for commercial use. It could be Pam did not dispute it, or did not use the proper defense.

    I took both of those quotes above from personal, not business account agreements.

    We can go back and forth all day, I am only stating what I have on my card agreements, what I have experienced in my dealings over the years (I've been both a cardholder and a merchant for over 30 years). My experience with the commercial exemption was before the internet, or at least before the world wide web, but the same language is still there.

    My only reason for posting this is to warn others to read there agreement and understand they can be disputed when using a personal card for commercial purchases. As with all disputes, with PayPal, card issuers or any other party there is an individual making the final decision, whether a minimum wage clerk in a cubicle or a judge in a courtroom and there are no guarantees in any case.

    Personally, I'd rather have the judge, but that doesn't happen with PayPal.

    My message is do not assume you are covered. You very well may not be. Just because your neighbor beat a speeding ticket does not mean you will. Life is not fair. And long established INTERNATIONAL law regarding shipping terms are well established around the world.

    You can do a Google for "shipping insurance" and find any number of companies who will cover single shipments.
  12. bhsizemo11

    bhsizemo11

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    311
    Wow - your response on representment for an item not delivered (or NAD) was the card was used for commercial use and the issuing card bank accepted? That's not even a valid reason at representment for AMEX/DISC/MC/Visa today. If this was a valid reason, it would be widely publicized in the merchant community. https://direct.53.com/help/53direct/Visa Chargeback Reason Codes.htm $250+ - only way to fight the chargeback for tangible goods (and no guarantee you win) is with signed proof of delivery at AVS billing address.

    "Business and government credit cards specifically do not offer some of the supposed benefits of personal cards, but when used in commercial transactions many of the supposed benefits do not apply." Can you provide proof of such exclusions of these [real] rights? The content of the documentation accompanying my personal and business cards are no different. Even if you use a personal card for business purchases, the dispute rights still apply. I used personal cards when I first started in business and had the same dispute rights as if it was a personal purchase.

    "And I have avoided chargebacks by claiming the card was used for commercial use. My experience with the commercial exemption was before the internet, or at least before the world wide web, but the same language is still there. Can you supply documentation since the language is still there? I'd really like to see documentation showing commercial use transactions don't have dispute rights.

    The clause for "items purchased for resale, professional or commercial use" is excluding special programs the card brand provides, not basic card rights (including disputes). AMEX excludes this from Purchase Protection at https://www.onlineclaim.americanexpress.com/pdf/purchaseProtectionClaimForm.pdf while Visa only excludes purchases for resale (http://usa.visa.com/download/business/cards/visa_benefits_business.pdf). Citibank, who offers Visa and MC, exclude these purchases from Price Protection - https://www.citicards.com/cards/wv/copy.do?screenID=1293). Again, this has nothing to do with disputes (charges not made/not recognized, wrong amount charged, goods/service not received, goods damaged on delivery, items not as described, etc).
  13. PhoneDevil

    PhoneDevil

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Messages:
    268

    Join the FSB (Federation of Small Businesses) - Costs about £120/year. Best thing I ever did.

    Then call up FSB Insurance (the details will be in your signup pack), and tell them you need goods-in-transit insurance.
  14. studio1one

    studio1one

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,698

    shouldn't matter what funding method you use. If you make a contract to purchase and the terms of the contract are FOB, then as long as the supplier can prove they delivered goods to port you have no recourse. Try a chargeback as much as you like but if a seller has adhered to the terms of a contract you will get nothing, as long as the seller can provide the TOC to the credit card company.
  15. bhsizemo11

    bhsizemo11

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    311
    The point of my post was CC protection (USA only, I'm not speaking to protection in other countries). Remember that AMEX/DISC/MC/Visa are all about retaining the customer and making them happy – not the merchant processing their cards. The issuing card bank will bend over backwards to make the customer happy so they will continue to spend money and pay interest charges on their card, which benefits them financially through interchange and ultimately the big four brands.

    If the paid invoice stated FOB that would make things different regarding a chargeback (and possibly quite interesting), but the original poster never stated terms were FOB. Preferable to buyers are INCOTERMS (2000) DDU destination with the definition stated on the invoice. If necessary, buy the third party insurance yourself but read all terms, limitations, and exclusions of that contract. Many times overseas suppliers will tell you they insured the shipment until the package is lost and you find out they didn’t. It’s fairly cheap to insure with DHL ($25 for $4000 coverage), but the supplier avoided SED paperwork since they put the customs value at $2000 when it was $4000.

    If there are no specifics on the paid invoice/receipt received during checkout regarding shipping terms, the credit card company won't accept such terms as part of the contract between the two parties. You can think differently, but my experience requires agreed to terms with documentation at the time of payment. Earlier emails, phone conversations, written correspondence, etc. have no bearing since contracts can change by the minute, just as the quantity or model requested may have changed from the previous day's email. With an invoice only showing the products description, amount, and shipping fees and no further terms - the supplier is taking it upon themselves to have the item delivered to the customer's address (and not just the port). The one caveat is the terms of sale agreement during checkout; if the merchant’s site lists specific shipping terms, those are applicable as well as long as they require the customer to actively agree to them during checkout as listed in the links below.

    It would be a similar problem for the buyer if an invoice only specifies MP3 Player and quantity but not the size (8GB) or model. Alternately, if a merchant has a no return policy (all sales final), enforcement is subject to a customer actively agreeing to such terms during checkout (http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/visa-usa-operating-regulations.pdf, P.302, http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/rules_for_visa_merchants.pdf, P.14).

    This is a great example why not to use FOB terms with a new international supplier. If you agree to FOB terms and your goods hit the port (then are lost), the supplier has fulfilled their duty and you're out those funds. It's advisable to buy "insurance" and through a third party. However, if you use a CC and FOB or other terms aren't listed on the paid invoice/receipt/terms of sale page - you're in much better shape.
  16. Pete

    Pete

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    14,067
    The reason every page in my checkout process says this -

    NOTE - All shipping is FOB. The goods are yours when they
    leave our building. We are not responsible for delivery.
    It is your choice to have confirmation for YOUR protection.
    SORRY - Our responsibility ends when we turn over to the
    pickup courier.

    You are not going to find many international sellers who do not insist on FOB. They are well aware of the problems that crop up and don't want to be the one responsible for a container at the bottom of the sea, or a air container splattered on a runway.
  17. thebusinessfish

    thebusinessfish

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2009
    Messages:
    7
    dhl are best courier in my world!!!!!i never have any 1 problem with them!!!!
  18. TOYS N BIKES

    TOYS N BIKES

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    12
    Over a year ago I had similar issues with parcels going missing and damaged etc (This was UK to UK shipments)... They weren’t interested and not much help; however after a lot of letters and phone calls I got a good result. So just keep contacting them.
    If you don’t have a business account domestic and international with them it makes this a lot harder. Try and speck to your area manager for DHL, it’s there gob to sort these things out.
    __________________________________________________ ______________________________
    However now because I am a large customer they bend over backwards for anything, it’s a shame they can’t offer that level of service from the beginning...
    __________________________________________________ ______________________________
    With regards to FOB (Free on board) ordering you MUST always insure you shipment for the full value, (many china suppliers will lower the price of the shipment on documents, they think they are doing you as favour this is very common) for instance when I ship containers from china I not only insure the cost price, but also insure the goods to full sales value, as well as insurance for covering me for lost of profit claims from my customers. Believe me it works out cheaper in the long run to have full insurance cover...
    FOB from china use DHL or TNT (not for full container loads), also if you can order stock in plenty of time you can use these companies part shared container shipment services which can save you a few quid.
    Remember if you ever have large quantities or even heavy items 40ft containers from china derived to your door are working out at less than £1500...
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